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Michael Spaeth:
So, welcome everybody to the session on the Embracing the Future of Work. My name is Michael, I'm a client partner with Aera and I'd like to set the scene before we get into this because historically the division of labor has really always been about driving productivity gains, really allocating tasks to the people who do them best. And that's really been driving a lot of the economic growth historically and this has really been true for people for skillsets. But now we're also getting into this new space of automation technology. So, we've been seeing this happen in factories but probably now we're seeing this happening in office spaces with the knowledge work.
Because this is really a trend where AI, big data processing is really showing us tasks that are better handled by computers. And it really puts up questions to the role of the knowledge worker, to the division of labor, how to best organize work going into the future. What is left for human intelligence? Where should we get the machine involved? So, this is really what we want to talk about today and explore this topic from various angles and to do this, I'm super delighted to welcome a panel of distinguished experts covering multiple bases in terms of future of work. So, I just hand it over to the panelists, maybe starting with Chantelle, would you just provide us with a quick intro?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Yeah. I'm Chantelle Brandt Larsen, I'm both a leader in future of work previously but now a researcher with my focus on human augmentation. Looking at humans and machines, basically mining the processes, the decisions that can be done in there and also mining the human.
Michael Spaeth:
Thanks Chantelle, Silvia.
Silvia Hernandez:
Great. So, Michael thank you for inviting us, glad to be here. I'm Silvia Hernandez, I'm a partner Ernst & Young and a leader of thinking around our future of work. Essentially we work with organizations to help them think through the implications of development in technology and in globalization, the environment, so that we can think about helping them address a better employee experience and. And come through with their promises to their employees.
Michael Spaeth:
Thanks, Juergen,
Juergen Peukert:
My pleasure. I'm Juergen Peukert and I have lived according to the change management transformation for many, many years as being a partner in the big four. Joined Korn Ferry in 2020 because I believe the people agenda is the most important thing to focus on in a time of unprecedented change, which is going beyond what we see in projects. It is going into what our companies look like and what their purpose is and how culture develops. So very happy to be here.
Michael Spaeth:
Great. Well, I'm very happy to have the three of you here in this conversation because I think this topic is certainly one of the most challenging topics and probably one of the most promising and important topics of our time. And I think many people who are getting into this domain start with a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear associated to automation of knowledge work. How is this going to affect my role? How is this going to affect jobs? What are companies going to look like in the few future? Is this really a concern Chantelle or are just people struggling to see what innovation can bring and what really lies behind the veil? What are you seeing?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
I think it's a false narrative that's created this myth of fear or reduction of jobs. In reality, you talked about blue collar to white collar or that piece. In reality as a white collar worker, only 30% of my role can be... my tasks but that doesn't mean that my role's going to go. And so, at some point some press clicked onto this and it made a really great headline, right? And that has created a positioning where you have this fear and typically you can get people saying, "I want to achieve this many FT savings." From a research perspective, what I'm hearing from the cases is that if you take this approach it fails. You don't get to the possibilities or the opportunities of what you can do with AI being fear based, or FT based because it limits your thinking about the different potentials that you can do.
Secondly, you don't really have a clear why, so it's actually more about the clear why. So, some of the case studies that I've got are having a 360 degree view of the customer, it's a really clear why. Imagine the potential of a farmer of whoever that has that view and what you can then do, what better patient care that you can have, look at what we've done with COVID. So, that's why I say it's a myth and actually there are many more opportunities that come when you pair AI with humans, which is what my research is about.
Michael Spaeth:
Great Silvia, can you resonate with that? Because it sounds like there's people coming from a reductionist view how can we automate and take away things? But there's actually a bigger opportunity in serving more and delivering more value. Is that what you're seeing too?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Yeah. So, I completely agree. I think it's a question of a narrative, right? We're missing a narrative and if I try to think about why that is and how do we address it, I think it's because the speed of change that technology is bringing about, combined with other forces that are affecting us are limiting our ability to think, right? And so, what I mean by that is, what linear in how we do planning and how we think about things. And so, the immediate response is the one that Chantelle has described is that, there is a limitation to what I'm doing, what will be the next? And so we've developed this narrative around the... in order for companies to be able to create these positive narratives and to address these questions. They need to think about this in three dimensions in parallel, right?
We don't know what to do, we talk about the now. And I think the now Chantelle just described is around creating efficiency, applying RPA or automation to creating capacity which tends to be... Given the short term nature of how we think about this, tends to look at headcount reduction. And I think that what is necessary here is looking at this from a place of, "What is it that I can do with the capacity that I'm just creating?" Right. And so, I think that would be the, "Now that's what I see companies really looking to do at the moment." Right? And given the pressures that COVID has brought around, the immediate short term financial pressure, there's a lot of focus on the financial return. I think that there's a next, right?
And when I think about the next, I think about a world where technology has broken through boundaries where we're in a convergent place. Where your new currency is going to be trust in your data, in your systems coming from a customer perspective. But also trust in your leadership, do you have the leadership capability to enable the storytelling around, "How are you going to create value?" And what are the opportunities for humans in this space to do things that we're really good at doing, right? And so, I think that's the piece that I don't see addressed as often. And if I think about the beyond as the third element is... I see a world where a lot of the value that we need to sustain ourselves is being produced by machines or by artificial intelligence or any combination thereof. Then I think the question becomes, "What's the role of the organization? Are we going to be as humans, are we going to be able to leave contemplative lives? What is it that we want society to look like in that future?"
Michael Spaeth:
Well, I think what you're saying is really resonating with me. I think the role of building this positive narrative as a desirable future scenario is really what drives the change towards this transformation. And building that narrative I feel is within the domain of the executive teams within companies Juergen. So, how do you feel that leaders are taking to this new future and actually being able to articulate what the future looks like and the journey on how to get there?
Juergen Peukert:
I think it's a topic that is taken very serious as we speak because we know the power of those narratives. We know about how crystal clear you need to be to come up with this desirable future as you named it. What's very important is nevertheless, it's the leaders who need to lead through this. And if that is done in the right way, so that it is not only packaging around, let's say sugar coating around something which is packaged as a nice project. But something which is going really radical human to say, "Well, what does it mean to the organization as a body?" As an organization is just people making it up using robotics, using other instruments that we do today in our daily work. And that will change in the future. But going into that in radical human perspective with a radically human perspectives gives us an opportunity to unleash extra energy in those teams because we need to perform.
And we need to transform in the same moment, which is for all the leaders, the given challenge at this point in time. What we found very important is three things, we as leaders need to go through and we are leaders in that context, not only our clients. It is on the one hand side that the teams need not only to have that narrative, they need to be United and engaged and in bold purpose for that transformation, what is it, why does it end up in a better working world or whatever.
It needs to encourage the people to move past the things they have done in the past because it looks different in future but it's maybe sometimes very difficult to predict how it looks like. But to create that confidence, to be part of that future is super important. And last not least, what we saw as well with many of our clients. It's the psychological safety that the leadership team really needs to create to help their people to unleash that energy and this potential to transform the way of how they work, which is ending up as well with another culture. But driven by purpose and values that we know today.
Michael Spaeth:
Well, that sounds very engaging because I feel oftentimes that a lot of the work that's being done today is really keeping the machine running. It's being part of the being a cog in the machine and keeping things running smoothly. But what you're speaking about is seemingly elevating the purpose of people, the meaningfulness of work, the engagement of employees to serve a larger mission. And I think that actually can drive a lot of engagement but at the same time, I'm hearing in the market that some leaders unfortunately say, "Hey, our teams aren't ready enough. We don't have the right people, they don't have the right skill set. It's going to be hard to really up skill broadly across the organization this purpose. So, what is your take Chantelle on this? Are we able to actually mature the level of the organization or is this a misnomer?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
I just want to touch on something to build upon the next from Silvia and Juergen when they were talking about... I think Juergen the traits that you talked about very much are connected to what we see in the research for teaming. But I want to mention one other player that I believe, not from a research perspective. I also believe that governments have a huge, fundamental role to play. We've mentioned leadership and we've mentioned the other pieces. But governments significantly, if you just look at how many people were furloughed in the last... Over a year now. In Europe, that's 80 to 70% of your salary. Now, I'm not saying we were all multitasking and looking after kids but we just lost a year where we could have up skilled people in new skills.
Michael Spaeth:
That's true.
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
We just lost a year, so there's an opportunity piece. Coming onto your question, I think your question was about skilling, right?
Michael Spaeth:
Right. [crosstalk 00:12:21] ... organization to really drive the change, drive the skilling of people, really get the ship moving in a sense, right?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Yeah. So, I think there's two levels, there is the up skilling but there is the knowledge of the people. So, what I see from a research angle, I keep looking back to the research is that the people have the knowledge. They have the tacit knowledge of what these opportunities are that can be unleashed in the organization. And the difference between those that succeed and don't are the ability to unleash them, right? How do you tap into the engineer that knows when something's going to break in a reliability centered maintenance? How do you tap into the fraud detection? So, these elements are, "How do you do that?" And this is the opportunity, the next that Silvia was talking about, the capacity for those fraud teams that are detecting 10 million more fraud than they were before. And this is exciting the team and they earn extra bonuses.
That's real energy, that's real tacit knowledge. And then once you've done that and you've unleashed it, which anyway is a continual process. So, the real organizations are making these part of their ongoing teams. There is also, as Juergen was indicating in terms of the leadership, right? You have a purpose, you have a mission and you commit to it but what new mindsets and skills and behaviors are needed. And committing to, "What really do we need to do to develop people?" And some it is taught because I hear we need a lot of up skilling but then the money isn't put behind up skilling it.
They're not really up skilling and [inaudible 00:14:02] it. And some are, so I'm being a little bit hard and maybe provocative but hey. So, there was this real need to up skill people overall beyond that tacit knowledge of integrating. But the new mindset, the new behaviors and the new skillset, so that I can do when 30% of my world is automated, the stuff that can be automated, what else could I do that could add value? And how else could I bring that energy and that impact to the organization? I'm sure the others have lots to add.
Michael Spaeth:
Yeah.
Silvia Hernandez:
Can I just jump in very quickly?
Michael Spaeth:
Absolutely.
Silvia Hernandez:
... Because I think you brought up this point with the corporation with institutions and I think that the world economic forum has come up with some really interesting data around countries and areas that are looking at up skilling. In combination with institutional enterprises and organizations, just looking at, "Where is the ecosystem going?" Right? Which is going to be driven, some of that is going to be partially driven by technology are doing better, are enabling the population to develop the necessary skill sets to continue to be employed, right? So, I think that's one really important piece. This is not just an issue the corporations alone need to deal with but if we look at it in the ecosystem, the outcomes are going to be a lot better for everyone.
And the other piece that I think you've phrased is that I like to think about responsible up skilling. It's not just up skilling, we want to look at doing things in a way that... We come around this incentive that organizations have right now to think about this in the short term, right? So, fair low incentives or other restructuring incentives. If you don't have the top of the organization, really thinking about the mid and the longer term, you could be coming up with some regrettable choices for the communities. And so, I think it's thinking about this in corporation with the institutions but also thinking about, "How do I identify people that I can develop into my next business model or into the next opportunity? Or how do I think about like Unilever does" Which I find quite compelling is if I cannot continue to employ you within my organization, where is it within the ecosystem of the organization within the supply chain that I might be able to enable you to find alternative sustainable employment/
Michael Spaeth:
That's an interesting thought because that goes beyond thinking about the skills of the individual but actually thinking about positioning talent within the larger ecosystem. Is this something that executives have top of mind in terms of staffing the roles within the organization but also outside of the organization Juergen?
Juergen Peukert:
So, what we see is and I was listening very carefully very much about skilling. Skilling is one thing but it's as well, the traits and drivers we need to establish and to develop and find in the leaders, helping to transform those companies. And why I'm saying that is we looked into many, many data points. You are looking into what is a self disruptive leader, someone who does not look into what is it that we do have here right now? What is it that is needed in the future? Even we don't know exactly how that looks and so it's on the one hand side, that skilling piece. But there is a lot of things that are really related to the personality that you can as well, drive and train. And you need to have the self-awareness because if you do not believe and if you do not have this willingness to say, "Well, let's go into something." Which is uncharted where we do not know how it looks precisely but we are confident to go there.
You will never do that now. And so what we found for example is that the tolerance of ambiguity is one of those traits that is very super important with those leaders or the trade of adaptability and risk taking just to name three, which are ranking very, very high in the top 10 of those traits. And it's only two competencies which is the building effective teams into engaging and inspiring, which is competencies. We are not talking about skills here. There are some things that are really counterproductive but let's say, "Put it in the positive angle today." What are the ingredients of success? And in case we can as well, we dive on the dark side.
Michael Spaeth:
What I like about what you said Juergen and then I'll pass it back over to the panel. But it sounds what you're mentioning as required competencies and skills are very much human skills. Are very much in the domain of emotional intelligence and what actually makes us truly human. And these are things that the machine will not be able to do anytime soon, maybe even never. So, it does actually show that the future is allowing for more humanity at the workplace and more human centered leadership and maybe handing over some of the more robotic tasks back to the machine. Does that work?
Juergen Peukert:
There's one point maybe Michael, I want to add here, if we are looking into what we see with our clients, there are many who have created these centers of excellence, where they bring in all those new technologies and look how it works and so on. And it's the laboratory [inaudible 00:19:23] You will only be able to scale it up when you are creating a movement and this goes into human dramatically, radically human perspectives because otherwise you will not create a movement that is supporting this. This is embracing it, that understands why that pays into the purpose and why this is something which is an enrichment for all of us. If you don't look at this from this perspective, we don't do it in a very effective way. We need to create those movements. And this means you need to think about what hinders us from bringing things from lap status into scale up and that is dramatically human.
Michael Spaeth:
Great. Chantelle, Silvia, any thoughts on that?
Silvia Hernandez:
Just a thing or two, some of what's been discussed has reminded me. I think I've read recently that we've spent the last hundred years turning humans robots and then it's going to take some technology to bring the humans back into action, right? And so, I think some of the comments that were just been made just reminded me of this. I think to certain extent it's largely true. I think that we've automated to a certain extent, a lot of what we do and we all need jobs, right? And we depend on jobs for this reliable or sustainable living that we have. But I think at the same time, if we can craft narratives that enable us to understand how that value distribution is going to work and how we can continue to contribute, then that will probably take away a little bit of the resistance and the fear that we're experiencing when it comes to some of the changes that are imminently coming.
Michael Spaeth:
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead Chantelle.
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
I think I'm seeing one, just to relate to the pragmatics of what I'm seeing when I'm hearing Juergen talk, which is absolutely hitting the spot. They have units of exploitation versus exploration, so having the exploration but then how do you scale by really working with on a community. So, the communities of the experts to understand, to leverage, to gain momentum, to sell in, to build that narrative in the organization. So, how do you then scale it up? So, in reality they are scaling up and they are leveraging from exploration into exploitation. So, that's what I'm seeing,
Michael Spaeth:
Where do you feel we are today on sense of urgency? So, do we feel that companies are pushing ahead fast enough? Or do you feel that with the scale and the scope of all the things happening right now, COVID pandemic, proliferation of products, innovation, technology innovation, generational change. Do you feel that companies are overwhelmed with the scope of changes that they need to tackle that they need to effectively manage? Silvia, Are we going at the right pace or are we not going fast enough?
Silvia Hernandez:
So, I think it's an interesting question. I had a feeling just before COVID hit that there was a little bit more action that could be taking place in the context of really exploiting the adoption of technology to collaborate differently, to do new things. And I think that if you can say that there's been positive outcomes coming out of COVID, one of which has to be that is dealt with a lot of the myths around, "They need to be physically present." And so, I think that there is a lot of the conversation that I am part of at the moment is really about, "How do we think about hybrid models that work?" What is it that we need to do to pick up on the learnings from here while still being able to maintain culture and enable that collaboration, that innovation that you were talking about.
And so, I think this is a very specific and contextual conversation for every organization. But if I can summarize, I think that a lot of the themes that I hear that are common threats amongst our organization but also others that we're working with, is around the, "We need to think about redefining collaboration." And collaboration, isn't just happening at meetings, it's happening before meetings, it's happening during the meetings and it needs to continue to happen after. So, how do we use technology? What are the environments that we can create to enable that collaboration, to continue to be a reality?
The second piece that I hear is very much at the center of conversation, is around learning, right? So, the question that we've talked about around app scaling, responsible, upskilling, learning, continuing to develop our set of competencies and skill sets. And the therapies that I think has come to the forefront of this conversation and I think is becoming increasingly important is this idea of wellbeing. And very specifically mental wellbeing, right? That is been as present before. But I think a lot of the organizations that I deal with are really thinking through these issues and depending upon their context, they are very much focused on looking for ways to get traction out of some of this. Yeah.
Michael Spaeth:
Juergen, Chantelle, any thoughts?
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
I mean, what's coming up and I totally agree with what Silvia saying is, is there's a difference between going fast and going far. In some organizations, I think they're going fast but it's, "What can I automate? What can I do?" So, it's the traditional pieces but that's not necessarily going far. And you can look at it from an [inaudible 00:24:44] point of view. You can look it from RPA, you can look at all automation but then they haven't really grappled with asking the right question of, "Why are we doing this?" Really looking at the business logic, the business decisions. So, in some ways COVID has sped up pieces but they may not be going far. And the reason then is that for me, it is around this augmentation about looking at the design of the human and of the machine.
And for me you will get further. If you really look at how do the two complement each other or support each other in each other's weaknesses? So, there's a real need to ask the right why, "Why are we doing this?" To look at the decisions that need to be made in the organization, not the tasks, right? And look at it like, "Do we have the right data?" Or if we want a 360 degree view of the customer, what systems can be optimized that we already have? Where can RPA be leveraged? What insights can we have? And then to look at these human factors, which we touch on but from an element design, how do we design in wellbeing? How do we design interest? How do we design in psychological safety, collaboration, explainability? All of these pieces actually increase the effectiveness of the implementation of AI in an augmented state. So, going far to me means augmentation. They might be going fast but fast isn't necessarily the winner if you look at the old story of the tortoise and the hare, so yes.
Michael Spaeth:
What you're saying sounds like it's time to grow up. Let's get out of the lab, let's get out of the experimentation and pilots. Let's actually think what is the purpose the company's trying to serve? What is value we're trying to deliver and work your way back there from the customer and rethink how to best organize and design the functions, the organization, the roles of people, how they can best contribute leveraging technology. It feels that we often have it reversed.
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Experimentation is good, so I don't want to say don't stop experimentation because I think that that is a good approach, right? You need to do the experimentation with the experts, you need to trial, but there's this narrative conversation or this is why. So, it needs to be twinned with Juergen was saying, purpose and mission. What Silvia is saying is now to next, what's next. I think we're saying same thing but with different words. So, I wouldn't say stop the experimentation and come out but there needs to be this bigger conversation. And then you come into experimentation in the experimentation, not just the experimentation of the machines but bringing it together with the human.
Michael Spaeth:
Are we getting there Juergen? Are we getting there in the C-suite?
Juergen Peukert:
Yeah, I would say yes. Yeah. And it's interesting, your question was, "Are we fast enough." Et cetera, are our clients in industry fast enough? But are we fast enough? It's the same, we are all in the same challenge to my understanding. What I see here is we need to understand that each company is in a different status. And it's about connected to the purpose, it's connected to the strategy. So, how does that all work to the strategy, which is really very different from company to company, looking into what customers do they serve? Who are the clients, who are the patients when we are looking life sciences, et cetera. What I want to say is, first of all it has to do with the mindset shift of this self disruptive thinking, going beyond what we have today because the success of today for many companies might be as well a hurdle to overcome.
Because why should you transform if your performance is just great at the moment? So, this is then in many cases driven by new competitors coming in, some unexpected competitors or something which is changing massively in the market that gives the drive to do that. And then these companies are really getting on it but we need to understand as well that in some cases it's just... Well, we are in a good status. The question is who's challenging this feeling of we are okay? We are performing great. Now, is there something out there that is jeopardizing this as we take this relaxed moment? Or should we look into this mindset shift, something is here that we can do much better in the favor of our customers, for the health of patients or for the health of society. In the end of the day, if we are talking sustainability. This is to my understanding something where we can rethink the way of how we do allocate resources.
And that brings us then back to the question, where is it that human beings are really driving value and what can we delegate to machines and algorithms, et cetera.
Michael Spaeth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Juergen Peukert:
And we need to understand that each company has different culture, et cetera, looking into this. And there might be subcultures depending on the ecosystems they're working with. Because if you are innovative player, breakthrough innovation, it looks maybe different to someone that is looking into customer centricity, being the companion in life, yeah? And we can see that in our data, that it's fundamentally different in the way of how people engagement looks like et cetera. But the way of leveraging technology into this based on the right mindset, that's just unleashing energy. And in the end of the day, benefits to all of us, not only to a company but to everyone who's linked into it. That's just great.
Michael Spaeth:
Chantelle.
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Yeah, there's something around Juergen spurred my thinking on the we, what do we mean by we? Because if I just think about COVID, I think going back to it, the premise. Literally people work together across ecosystem to achieve what we didn't think was achievable to get a vaccine out there really quickly, right? So, when we say, "Are we fast?" I think we can be faster together. And sometimes it doesn't have to be direct competitors but there is this ecosystem learning or the ecosystem thinking. And again, some of the research coming back to the people that have gone fast, they've a leveraged the vendor, right? Ecosystem but then also their supply chain or people that are not competitors who are leveraging senses to bring in their learning in order to go faster. So, how do we see we?
Is it just me as in my company, my entity? Yes, we're all at different stages and different maturities. Aha. But where are they going fast? And what can I learn off them? So, I think this we is actually also quite critical about what can we learn across industries, from the ecosystem and from speeds where we could adopt. I was having an interesting conversation with a certain industry that was saying, "Okay, we have the ability to charge a phone every six months versus every day." In something else, I can't really go into all of it but actually if you apply that to the phone, so it's a different industry. If you apply this technology to the phone where actually... can you imagine not having to charge your phone and just having to do it every six months? But this technology is applied in something else, that's super interesting, right? That's super interesting but it's that ecosystem learning that we have to leverage? Yeah.
Michael Spaeth:
Wow. So frankly, I could continue this conversation for hours but unfortunately we only have half an hour. Silvia, would you maybe wrap it up or what would you recommend? So, from my understanding it comes down to leading the change, all of us together, it's really embracing the future, building the narrative. What would you recommend people that are hesitant to get going on the journey? What would you recommend to start taking the steps and moving ahead?
Silvia Hernandez:
The journey of automation you mean? Or the journey of embracing technology as an additional resource to your workforce.
Michael Spaeth:
Yes.
Silvia Hernandez:
[inaudible 00:33:06] So I think, I am a relentless optimist, right? And so I think that the development that we're currently experiencing are presenting an opportunity. And I guess that the speed at which they're coming are forcing us to rethink how we go about doing things. And so, my sense around this is that we have as organizations as institutions, we probably could continue to serve our purpose. We just probably have the opportunity to do it in a very different way. And in the context of doing so, we might have an opportunity to create different forms of value that we might not have thought through.
And so, I think that it is about repositioning around, "Who is it? What is it? What are the problems that we're solving? How does technology become relevant in addressing that promise to our customers? And how do we create through technology?" The employee experiences, the employee opportunities that we need to create in order to continue to evolve that promise. So, my sense is that we've been really challenged clearly and the pandemic is not yet over but looks like it will be. And I think that if we apply the learnings that we've just acquired from the pandemic, we probably are in a position to create just some great outcomes, right? And I think that there's certainly a lot of problems around that we want to solve. So I would think that there's an opportunity of combining the power of technology, artificial intelligence with the creativity and the ingenuity of humans to just do great things.
Michael Spaeth:
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Like I said, I could continue for hours talking to you. It was a really fantastic conversation, great group of excerpts here. So, really appreciative of you joining the event and looking forward to keep connected as we proceed on the journey. So, thank you so much.
Silvia Hernandez:
Thank you.
Chantelle Brandt Larsen:
Thank you.
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